Leslie Duffy 00:00:04 You’re listening to the Hormone Shift Show, the podcast where we stop pretending that everything’s fine and we start getting real about midlife health. My name is Leslie Duffy, and I am a registered nurse, life coach, and certified functional hormone expert. This podcast is a guide for women navigating the twists and turns of living through the hormone shift, but also to understand what’s happening with your hormones. Each week, we’re going to dive into topics such as nutrition, gut health, relationships, and mindset. These shifts will help you feel more grounded, more in control, and have a lot more clarity. I am so glad that you are here. And just as a reminder, the content in this podcast is not a substitute for medical advice from your health care practitioner or your medical team. While I am a licensed healthcare professional, I am not giving you any medical advice. This is purely for educational purposes. Please consult your provider for medical guidance specific to you. This is your window of hell. Your comeback starts here.

Leslie Duffy 00:01:01 Let’s go. Welcome to the Hormone Shift Show, the podcast that helps rewrite the rules of midlife. One shift at a time. I’m your host, Leslie Duffy. And today, we’re talking about a question that crosses the minds of more women than ever before. Do I want a divorce or is it menopause? At this stage of life, you have spent years being the nurturer for your kids, for your partner, for everyone, including the dog. And when life shifts, there’s a lot more to do, which means there’s a lot more stress. So it could be that your parents are getting older and more frail. Maybe your hormones are changing and you’ve hit a physical wall. Perhaps you’re just not sleeping as well and you just are physically really struggling. Maybe there are things that you decided you no longer want to do, and many women in this stage are feeling unappreciated. They’re feeling overwhelmed and frustrated. When things start to change, circumstances starts to change. There is also a loss of identity. Now, before you go and make that decision of whether or not to get a divorce, I want you to hear this conversation.

Leslie Duffy 00:02:08 My guest today is Carolyn Sharp. She is a couples therapist, a coach and author of Fire It Up for Secrets to Reigniting Intimacy and Joy in Your Relationship. She has been helping couples for over 30 years to rewire their connection, rebuild intimacy, navigate transitions in ways that actually last. In this episode, we are going to talk about why so many couples expect connection to just happen and how to shift that mindset. We’re also going to be talking about the signs that you have drifted into disconnection and how to spot them early. Carolyn is also going to share with us a powerful tool that she uses to help clients get out of defensiveness and back into trust. Please be sure you have to stick around until the end. I’m going to share with you a few practical takeaways, plus a free listener guide to help you reflect on what you want and how to move forward with clarity. So let’s get into it. All right, Carolyn Sharp, thank you so much for coming to the hormone shift show. I am delighted to have you, the audience that’s listening to the hormone Shift show.

Leslie Duffy 00:03:15 We are all probably 35, 40 and up, and things definitely tend to change. Oxytocin starts to wane as our stress levels go up. We are all very, very distracted human beings right now on Earth. You and I know each other from a previous life. We were friends in a mastermind together, and I’ve been rooting for you on the sidelines, so I’m so happy to have you here. I cannot even begin to tell you. So let’s talk about relationships. And I imagine that your audience is what age? Tell me a little bit about your audience and who comes to see you.

Carolyn Sharp 00:03:53 I have a pretty wide range. I have couples as young as in their mid 20s, probably. I mean, I did have someone who was a young college student reach out to me, which is just the sweetest thing. She and her boyfriend were separated for the first time at different schools, and she wanted to know how to keep it healthy. It was like the sweetest, sweetest moment. But for the most part, people are in their, I would say late 30s to mid 60s probably.

Carolyn Sharp 00:04:20 That’s probably the most common demographic that I get.

Leslie Duffy 00:04:23 When know when I first started doing my research into hormones, I’m a functional medicine practitioner for the audience who is just now finding this podcast. I’m a functional medicine practitioner, and I help women over 40 who are dealing with hormone issues, anxiety, stress, and even relationships and mindset and things like that. And when I first started doing my research into our demographic and what’s happening with the female midlife brain, it’s in the book that I was reading. It’s called The Female Brain was all about relationships. In the show notes, I will include the author, but she talks about how our relationships start to change because all of a sudden, the mommy brain, which is very prone to keeping the peace, making sure that everybody’s safe and don’t make any waves. And it’s all about procreation. The brain is very much into procreation, and we tend to not make waves, whereas later in life we’re like, we’re done. I’m done with keeping the peace. I’m done with trying to make everybody happy, and I want to focus on myself.

Leslie Duffy 00:05:31 And that is a big change, I think for men in particular, because they’re like, what on earth has happened? And what have you done with my wife? So I’m wondering, have you experienced that?

Carolyn Sharp 00:05:42 Absolutely. And it’s something that I find what sort of surprises me in this wild Intersection that we all go through where simultaneously our life roles are changing, you know, as we go and become parents. That’s a major life role change when we become empty nesters in a huge role change. We’re also simultaneously having massive physical changes as part of this. And what surprises me in couples is that they’re surprised that they have to reevaluate and work on their relationship as they go through this massive life change. Whether it’s taking a new job or having a new baby, or your first kid going to college, or all your kids leaving for college, that there’s a massive change in how you view yourself and how you view one another and how you function in your relationship. And so I see it all the time that there is a major shift that takes place.

Carolyn Sharp 00:06:39 You know, I mean, as someone who’s gone through menopause, who’s on the other side of the hill, it’s still unfolding for me and it’s still unfolding in my relationship, so I know it personally and I see it professionally.

Leslie Duffy 00:06:54 Do you think that people are surprised or they don’t really attribute their physical changes or their hormones or anything to it, or are they just like thinking that they should be the same the way it was at the beginning of their relationship? What do you think is the biggest misconception there?

Multiple Speakers 00:07:14 Well, that things should change at all, or that there should be.

Carolyn Sharp 00:07:17 Effort in it is the thing that people are continually shocked by, and I find people want to blame their partner for their struggle and don’t want to acknowledge that there is a physical change, that I’m getting older, my body is changing. It’s harder to enjoy X, Y or Z, or I don’t enjoy X, Y, or Z as much. Whether that’s a pastime, you know, a hobby or it’s sex in the bedroom or whatever, that things should just stay the same, and they don’t want to acknowledge their body is changing and they don’t want to acknowledge that they have to put more work in to something that used to be easy for whatever reason.

Leslie Duffy 00:07:56 Okay, so Carolyn, I totally agree with you. I think that there is this perception that things should stay the same, that things shouldn’t change, and if they do, there’s something wrong. And in your book, you mentioned that there’s a four step process that you use. So what’s the biggest myth that couples believe about reigniting their relationship? And how does your four step process call BS on it?

Multiple Speakers 00:08:20 Well, the first.

Carolyn Sharp 00:08:21 Piece of BS is that it should just stay the same. The flame should never go out, and if the flame goes out, if the spark dies, there is a looming disastrous problem with the relationship. So that’s the first thing I call BS that of course the spark goes out, we get tired, we get sick, we get busy, we stop tending to the relationship and the fire goes out. Which is why I use the metaphor in the first place, because relationships, like fires need to be fed the things they need to keep itself healthy. And I’m trying to get people on the bandwagon now.

Carolyn Sharp 00:08:56 I’m mixing my metaphors. you know, I’m trying to get them on board with tending their relationship, proactively feeding it the fuel it needs, feeding at the oxygen it needs, feeding, the spark that it needs, and doing all of this. Now I’m giving away the four steps, doing this on a foundation. The purpose part of a healthy relationship where we know what we want out of the relationship. We know what our relationship is about, and we have the agreements and the habits in place to really support what we want out of the relationship, and probably the thing that people find most surprising and that I am most likely to sort of call them out on, is that lack of purpose that they have. They don’t understand why they’re together anymore. You know, they don’t redefine that. They don’t set a mission statement. They don’t have working agreements. And so nothing sticks. You know, the work doesn’t stick because they don’t know why. You know, I mean, from a physical example of why am I going to the gym? What’s the purpose of going to the gym? Is it to meet people? Is it to get strong? Is it to work on my cardiovascular health? Is it to prepare for a race or a, you know, professional focus? Why am I going to this mastermind? Why am I going to this meeting? Why am I working on this project and working with this difficult person? We have to have a goal that we’re working toward.

Carolyn Sharp 00:10:16 And so the BS that I call most often is you can just kind of like wing it. You can just kind of, you know, half assed it and just sort of like flail around and just go on a date and that’s enough to put the spark back. And you have to be more thoughtful than that if you want to sustain a healthy relationship.

Leslie Duffy 00:10:36 I love that. Yeah. And I think that that really does. You’re right. It does align to everything that we’re doing in our lives. You know, I love that you brought up your health and like, you’re going into the gym. What’s the point of it if you have a goal in mind? Right. And it doesn’t even have to be a long term, short term goal. I love talking about future self, and this is one of my the main themes that I’ve been actually talking with a lot of my guests is that we’ve lost this connection to our future self and what we want our future to be like in many ways. And this is very important in health, and I didn’t make that connection with relationships until you just mentioned it.

Leslie Duffy 00:11:12 So I think this is really valuable for everybody. But when you are thinking about your 80 year old self, like, how do you want to be, do you want to be walking on the beach, be able to hold your grandchild’s hand and, you know, race them to the end or do fun things? And it all goes back to that future self and your goals. And I never put that together. I love that with your relationships because I think in many ways, depending on how long you’ve been together with somebody, it can fizzle out. What do you think might be one of those things that is a key that you might need a little bit of support, or you might need to start putting some kindling in the fire. What do people come to you for?

Carolyn Sharp 00:11:55 Well, not only can it fizzle out, it will fizzle out. I mean, there will be periods. I haven’t met a couple that haven’t had periods where it’s fizzled. You know, I mean, it may only be a few months long, but it fizzles because life gets in the way of us doing things.

Carolyn Sharp 00:12:11 Just like in our health. We go through periods where we’re eating too much sugar or we’re not as active or whatever it happens. So I try to normalize that as much as possible so that people aren’t freaked out by it, and so that they know what to do to minimize it and to integrate health into their relationship as a part of their daily life, rather than just tending to it when there’s a crisis which is much more work. You know, when someone is having an affair or thinking about having an affair or an emotional affair or whatever it is, or fantasizing about leaving and living on the beach by themselves. I’m trying to help them before they get to that point. And so your original question is, what are the signs and signals that this is coming? You know, I mean, it can be anything as sort of large as we feel like roommates with each other. That’s a few steps past to the point. Earlier on, you recognize that really we only talk about our work or the kids.

Carolyn Sharp 00:13:13 We’re not having those soul shaking to be dramatic about it does really fascinating, really fiery conversations where we both feel most alive with one another. We’re not having fun together. We’re not laughing together as much as we used to. These little signals that couples tend to sort of sweep under the rug and not look at like, oh, he’s just tired. I’m just tired. Let’s not pay attention to that, all right? One day. That’s fine. A couple of days, that’s fine. After about of late, you know, 3 or 4 running interactions like that, you want to have a conversation. Have you noticed that we haven’t been laughing together in a week? We haven’t done what we normally like to do with each other in a month. Talk about it then, rather than waiting and coming to me six months after you noticed it, a year, ten years, 30 years after really not putting in deliberate, thoughtful effort into your relationship or putting deliberate, thoughtful effort in. And it’s not working because then you’re doing the wrong work.

Leslie Duffy 00:14:14 Yeah, I totally see that. So we’re talking about preventative rather than rescuing behaviors. That’s very, very different. Now we’ve got hormones, we’ve got careers, we’ve got caregiving. And I say this all the time. We have the benefit of living longer and we’re also at risk for more stress. You know, we’re just getting older. Our own health is changing, and our parents and we’ve got careers and we’ve got kids everywhere. It just hits differently now. We’re more at risk for all this stress and everything. What do you think is getting in the way? Mostly. What’s the theme in your clientele and what you’re seeing on the ground, boots on the ground type of thing? What’s getting in the way?

Carolyn Sharp 00:14:53 People are letting their relationship be the last thing they tend to. They’re underestimating the importance of tending to their relationship and working on their relationship and like, oh, I can do this. After the kids are in bed, all the dishes are done. I’ve returned all the phone calls, I’ve folded the laundry, I’ve completed all my work tasks, I’ve whatever washed my bike.

Carolyn Sharp 00:15:16 I’ve, you know, like, I can leave this to 10:00 at night to even think about it. That’s the theme of the problem I see most often. And I feel like I’m screaming, you know, you’re you’re reminding people of one thing. I’m reminding people of another. Don’t leave your relationship to last on the list, because it is the thing that I find more than anything impacts our health more than anything. If our relationship is not solid, we feel funky. You know, we’re distracted, we’re carrying cortisol. The load in our body goes up. If we’ve had a fight with our partner and then we go to work, if we feel secure in our relationship, if we feel solidly connected, we feel better, we have more energy, we’re less distracted, all of that sort of stuff. And it isn’t a means of, you know, you have to give up your golf game or you have to give up your girls night out or whatever. You don’t have to give anything up in order to do that.

Carolyn Sharp 00:16:12 You just have to be more intentional with your energy and your relationship in order to feed it in the way you need to.

Leslie Duffy 00:16:20 Oh yeah, I totally like that. I really enjoy that. What you just said. We are juggling so much, and we do have to make purposeful intention and action towards it. Now, it’s funny for the audience. I’m going to link an article that I sent to Carolyn, and it’s about the Menno divorce and a lot of women who now we’ve talked about a little bit like, not only are our hormones changing and our roles are changing, our mood is changing. And what happens is that we are a little bit less likely to put up with things that we did before. We are less tolerant of behaviors that maybe we were okay with a while ago, and maybe we’re not so much anymore. A lot of it has to do with, like, the woman taking care of somebody else. And a lot of times we’re done. That is all a very much a hormonal shift where we’re experiencing that loss of oxytocin, less of a tending befriending were more of a introspective like, now I get to do what I want to do.

Leslie Duffy 00:17:22 And we see a lot of marriages kind of dissolve in this stage And a lot of it in this article. It actually says things. I’ll link it in the show notes, but it’s called welcome to the Menno Divorce. What women are sweating marriage and a sea of hot flashes. And it talks about women who are, like, angry and and kind of like blaming and in that kind of mindset where, you know, like I said, we’re done. I love my husband is one of the parents, I love my husband, but I hate him type of thing. What do you say to this woman who is probably listening to the show right now?

Carolyn Sharp 00:18:00 Well, first prepare to be irritated or pissed off at me because I will say, I mean, I’m all for women and all people making the decisions for their lives that feels best. But that woman who wakes up at 55 and says, I’m done, has been not listening to herself at year 45, at Yale, 35 at year 45. She has not been creating a healthy relationship, and she owns 50% of the dynamic where she’s doing more than her partner is doing.

Carolyn Sharp 00:18:29 Male or female? I mean, I see gay couples, lesbian couples, straight couples. This dynamic crosses all of those lines where there is someone who’s an over functionary and an over under functionary. And the painful, annoying reality is that it takes an under function for for there to be an over functionary, and it takes an over functionary for there to be an under function. And so this is a dynamic between two people where there’s a reason why you do everything and why you have done everything for 20 years or 30 years. There’s something you’re getting out of it that you have liked. And maybe it’s avoidance of confronting your partner. Maybe you’re not comfortable asking for what you need. Maybe it’s that you like the way you do things more than the way they do things. Whatever it is, you have to own your part in the dynamic. And if the loss of oxytocin is your excuse for calling, I’m not doing this anymore. Great. I’m sorry that you waited until the off citizen loss, and you didn’t call it out at year three, rather than at year 30 to say, I’m sick of this.

Carolyn Sharp 00:19:32 This isn’t working for me anymore. I want something more. I want something different. Divorce isn’t the only option. It takes more work after 30 years. Which is why I wrote the book and developed the program that the book is based on to get people working at month three rather than year three, and certainly rather than decade three to get working and creating a healthy dynamic where both people are getting their needs met, including that woman. I mean, I want you, whoever’s listening to get what you need and get what you want. And if you your future self is walking alone on that beach, that’s great. That’s fine. Have at it. But it’s not his fault. It’s not menopause. His fault. You’re making a choice. Own your choice. Be empowered. Take responsibility for your part. And I say this as someone who makes bad choices in my relationship. Basically, on the daily where I don’t feel like dealing with. I’ll just clean up after my husband. The way he cleans the counters, because I like the counter the way I do, and it’s not worth the conversation about it at this point.

Carolyn Sharp 00:20:31 I have to own that. That’s my choice and not be resentful toward him. Because, you know, that’s the way he does it. He’s fine with it. It’s my issue.

Leslie Duffy 00:20:38 Yeah, Carolyn, I’m like, I’m saying yes, preach. I really I agree with all of what you just said, and I love that because one of the things I teach in my program is also, you know, 100% radical responsibility. It’s like you do have responsibility. You do have a say in your marriage. And I do think that, again, like we’re talking about like the influence of hormones. Most women don’t even know this though. And we do have like the sudden like awareness of, okay, menopause. And suddenly we’re we’re seeing the trends in the language that’s being spoken on the internet, on the media. People didn’t even know that it was hormones for a very long time. I like the fact that we create awareness around the fact that it is your brain. Your brain is changing and it is related to hormones, and it’s not necessarily your husband.

Leslie Duffy 00:21:26 Everybody else is basically doing the exact same thing around you that they’ve been doing for years. And the only thing that’s changed is maybe it’s you, you know, whether it is whether or not you’re going to tolerate more or not, that’s totally okay. But it is about understanding. I like what you said, that it was along the lines of it served a purpose. Like either you’re raising a family or one of you was the breadwinner and one of you was a stay at home person, and it does serve a purpose. You called it out. It’s like there’s under functioning and highly functioning. But also, I won’t pointed out that I want to say it might be even more context specific depending like, I’m not going to be the one that’s going to take over in the car situation. I’m like, I’m going to leave that one to my husband. Or like I prefer to drive, even though he’s a crazy driver. I’m like, I prefer to be the passenger. And now I just sit in the back seat.

Multiple Speakers 00:22:19 So with my iPad and I’m like with my head down. So like, we can have.

Leslie Duffy 00:22:25 These moments where we’re like, all right, I know things are changing. My body is changing this kind of awareness, and maybe it’s not necessarily him. And how do I get through this with radical responsibility and self-compassion at the same time?

Carolyn Sharp 00:22:40 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. And curiosity, being interested in how did this pattern develop? How did I choose someone who was prone for over functioning or under functioning? And you said highly functioning. And I just want to make sure there’s not one that’s better than the other, you know, a over function, or isn’t a better person or a better partner than the under function. Or everybody has skills and challenges that they’re bringing to the relationship, most of which we learned growing up. You know, we were wired, literally wired in how to be in relationship. And for some men out there, it was you let the woman run the house and she does X, and I do Y, and that presents challenges for both men and women.

Carolyn Sharp 00:23:28 It also presents challenges in lesbian relationships and in gay relationships, because if you don’t have the alternate gender, what are you doing? You know, like, what do you do with that wiring? So it presents challenges for everybody. When we’re wired to expect certain things in relationship, we behave in ways that we’re not even aware of. And so being curious about that, how did I learn this? How did I develop this habit? How did we develop this habit? What does it do for you? What does it do for me? Why do we keep doing it when we both feel frustrated about it? Because the other dynamic that takes hold in an under functioning, over functioning relationship is the level of criticism and contempt that lives in there. Of being angry with your partner for not doing it right or not initiating it or all that sort of stuff. And so then that doesn’t encourage the owner to move forward and initiate things. If when they do, they’re criticized for how they do it. If they don’t do it, you know, they’re criticized.

Carolyn Sharp 00:24:28 Well, it’s about time. Why am I going to initiate something when you’re going to criticize me? And so it takes both that radical responsibility, that self-compassion and curiosity. I would almost argue, most importantly, of like, what is this and what is the cause? Is it my hormones? Is it my brain? Is it the role shift that’s taking place right now? Is it our expectations? Is it our lack of what is it that has caused the flicker to go out, or the anger to build in our relationship?

Leslie Duffy 00:24:58 Oh, that was so good. That’s like on itself. I feel like we all just participated in a huge TEDx talk.

Multiple Speakers 00:25:03 Like right now I’m like, that’s amazing. Oh my God.

Leslie Duffy 00:25:06 I mean, the way you’re talking about it, I just I see it in myself. There’s certain things like, you know, lately I’m not sleeping, so I’m sleeping in. And my poor husband. He’s like, you know, he’ll start the, you know, do things that he doesn’t usually do.

Leslie Duffy 00:25:18 And he’s like, you know, I took care of this and that. And I’m like, thank you.

Carolyn Sharp 00:25:21 Do you want a parade?

Leslie Duffy 00:25:25 He’s like, I just do everything around here. I’m like, I know you feel like you knew everything around here, but it’s it’s so funny. I want to, like, step back to the earlier part of our conversation when we were talking about how things kind of ebb and flow and come in and out, and we can have moments where we’re expecting it to just not need the tending, not need the care. Now it’s like kind of in this combustible type of time in our lives where things are changing, our stress landscape is definitely changing. What do we do to train ourselves to kind of speak in a different way that we’re not used to and still try to tend without insulting, without, you know, because we maybe we might be caught in dynamics that just aren’t helping. What do you recommend?

Carolyn Sharp 00:26:12 Start small. Practice having little conversations where you don’t need to beat the ever loving crap out of the conversation where you’re just naming.

Carolyn Sharp 00:26:23 I feel like we’re out of sync and I don’t quite know what to do about it yet. I’m noticing that the way we’ve done this one thing for the whole relationship isn’t really feeling so good anymore. Start sort of planting the seeds where it doesn’t become so threatening, so scary, so overwhelming to just name things that are true so that when you have time and space, when you feel clearer, you can have a conversation and get curious together about how did we get here, what happened? And certainly I want to invite and encourage people to start having these conversations earlier in their relationships where they’re noticing, I feel kind of funky this week. How about you? It’s been a few days since we had sex, or it’s been a few days since we had a coffee date. How do you feel about that? Just naming it is something because it doesn’t become normal. It doesn’t become just the regular part of the landscape. And so I certainly encourage people to start having that conversation right from the get go in their relationship or as soon as you notice it.

Carolyn Sharp 00:27:25 But if it’s 20 years down the line, if you’re in menopause, if you’re in midlife and you’re just realizing it now because of hormones, because of the brain changes, start where you are and start small of just. I don’t feel quite as happy with how our relationship is now as I hope I would, or as I want to, and I just want to start the process of getting happier together and then have a good day. Love you. See you tonight. You know it doesn’t need to be. People think they need to torture themselves and have life really intense hours and hours. And that is not the way that I work, because it’s not sustainable and we all sort of reach our fill level of emotional chow chow, emotional conversation where like, I can’t talk about this anymore. It doesn’t work. So just start like small.

Leslie Duffy 00:28:21 Yes, I love that. And you also mentioned, I think in your book that you try to use humor, having that as kind of like an anchor for your connection and, and to kind of defuse the situation.

Leslie Duffy 00:28:34 Tell me a little bit more about that. How do you use that in talking about this?

Carolyn Sharp 00:28:38 Our brain, when it is the nervous system is rising and our stress level is rising. There are things we can do that create what’s called a state change in your brain that sort of provide a breath of fresh air. Cuba is one of them. A change of subject is another one. A distraction is another one of like, oh, squirrel, look over there. It provides a like a little steam valve release for the brain or, you know, again, a mixing my metaphors as I am so prone to do that allows allows us to sort of take a breath to reset. And so, I mean, I’ve been a therapist for going on 30 years. One of my defense mechanisms in my development as a healthy human is humor and sarcasm. I call myself the Roy Kent of couples therapists and couples coaches because I am like, brutally honest and like very funny. I have 30 years of experience for using it in ways that master the moments, though I use it wrong frequently as well.

Carolyn Sharp 00:29:40 So you know, if you aren’t a naturally humorous person, if you don’t use playfulness and humor and sarcasm in your relationship in a way that is safe, I encourage people to be very careful with it. Because if all of a sudden you start being sarcastic with your partner to try and make them feel better, probably not going to work. Probably going to be misinterpreted, but I use it a lot to normalize, to disarm people from being so intense about the struggles that they have. And I’m careful to use it in a self-deprecating way to help them see we’re in this together. I’m also an idiot in relationships. I also screw up all the time. Here’s a funny story of something stupid I did so that when I’m challenging somebody, or when a partner is challenging another partner in coaching or therapy with me, they get support in recognizing you’re not alone. It’s okay to make mistakes. You’re going to make a lot of them in your relationship. And that should be you should be creating safety together to do that.

Carolyn Sharp 00:30:44 So humor is one of my leading devices. I don’t recommend it for everybody if it’s not something that naturally occurs because feelings get hurt. And my husband was raised in a very different household than I was. You know, obviously, since, you know, if we were siblings, that would be really bad. example. Humor. Number one. But. So I got myself in a lot of trouble. I hurt his feelings a lot in our early days, in my use of sarcasm and sort of bluntness and directness, and I’ve had to alter it. And he’s also developed a skin for it and knows what I mean now, so that when I make a joke, he knows he can hear the tone in my voice or, you know, the twinkle in my eye. So he knows I’m being playful, but I’ve screwed it up a lot as well.

Leslie Duffy 00:31:30 That’s part of the process, right? I want to say that being funny, first of all, does not come naturally to me. It does for my husband.

Leslie Duffy 00:31:37 I have noticed that. And I like how you know, you said it’s like an escape valve for the brain and it kind of disarms the whole situation. It’s not easy to be criticized, right? It’s not easy to be brought to task, or even I don’t even want to say it’s even that far. But even like having a conversation about, like, sex or like, how long has it been since we’ve had sex? Or how long has it been since you took the trash? I don’t know, like along those lines, like I need support, but at the same time. How do you make sure that it’s received in the right way? Like, how do we get that?

Carolyn Sharp 00:32:08 Well, that’s an art form. And it is one part art and one part science, because you need to understand your partner’s brain, and you need to understand their attachment system and how they were trained to be in relationship. Was it safe in their family to give or receive constructive, critical feedback? Was it okay to make mistakes? All of these things wire us to feel how we feel about criticism.

Carolyn Sharp 00:32:34 I got criticized all the time growing up. I had two older brothers and older cousins, and I was dealt with a little bit harshly, both for good and for evil, such that I have a pretty thick skin about most feedback, so I don’t need a lot of fluff around telling me that’s really stupid or no or whatever. Other people, my husband included, didn’t grow up without was the same. It wasn’t done the same way. And so he needs a little support around feedback. And so the art and science of this is knowing your partner’s brain and knowing how they were trained in relationship, so that you don’t try and treat your partner the way you want to be treated. You know, like the golden rule. It’s like taking the gold to platinum or something, where you’re treating your partner the way your partner wants to be treated in the delivery of feedback, and you need to pay close attention. So one of the biggest things to do that I recommend is watching your partner when you deliver the feedback facing them, so that you’re seeing both their face and their body to see how did that land, and if it lands in a painful way that you recognize it and say, I see that that hurt you.

Carolyn Sharp 00:33:44 And that was the last thing I wanted to do. So you take care of the relationship before just insisting you need to hear that you’re doing it wrong. You need to hear that I don’t like it. Okay. Well, full empowerment here. You know, I want people to have their voice and all that sort of stuff, but there’s more to being heard than just what you’re saying. There’s also how you say it, and there’s also how the receiver receives it. There’s science to this. And so it takes both partners working together to go, how can I give you feedback? I don’t want to hurt your feelings. I don’t want to make you feel small or bad. But I need to be able to tell you when something isn’t working for me. When is the best time? Because some people have braids that work in the evening, some people don’t. Some people have brains that are ready to go in the morning. Other people don’t. When is the best time? What is the voice tone? All that sort of stuff.

Carolyn Sharp 00:34:37 And then watching. Because a phrase that I use a lot that I learned from my mentors. Can words can lie. Bodies never lie. So I can tell you I’m fine and I’m not. I can tell you I like something when I don’t. And partners need to be paying attention to the physical cues because I think it’s anywhere from, you know, the science says it’s anywhere from like 65 to 80% of communication is non-verbal. So if we’re just listening to the words, we are missing so much of the data, so much of the information, so much of the material about who our partner is and how they function. So that’s what I would say to pay closer attention.

Leslie Duffy 00:35:23 Oh my gosh, Carolyn, are you kidding me? I feel like we’ve just had I feel like I should pay you after this, like for a little session here. I’m like.

Multiple Speakers 00:35:31 Oh my God. I’m like, I just got so much out of this.

Leslie Duffy 00:35:34 I want to tell you that that is huge. And tell me, why does this happen? Because this is what I find like, I feel like with husbands, wives or partners, it’s like this person is so incredibly close to you.

Leslie Duffy 00:35:47 They almost can see your thoughts going through your head. Right? Because you it’s like somebody, you know, like the back of your hand. But at the same time, we don’t give. And my husband will complain. You know, I’m going to be very honest with the audience. You know, like every marriage, it’s it’s a work, right? It’s everything is the kindling of the fire. It’s all of that. Sometimes when we’re hurting each other’s feelings, my husband will say, you know what? I don’t see you talking to your friends like this. I’m like, because I wouldn’t like.

Multiple Speakers 00:36:15 Because I don’t annoy me like you do.

Leslie Duffy 00:36:16 But how do you get to that point where you can, like, take. It’s almost like we’re like this. If you’re listening in the car, I’m putting my hands together and I’m squishing all my fingers together. And how do we extricate ourselves and see each other as human beings instead of, like, our appendage?

Carolyn Sharp 00:36:33 There’s a question with so many levels of answers.

Carolyn Sharp 00:36:36 Our partners are our attachment figures. Our first attachment figure is our parents. Our second attachment figure is our partner. And they are the person sort of walking around carrying our heart in their hands. They’re the only person that is meant to be our emotional home. They are meant to meet our emotional needs in our relationship. It’s a one of a kind relationship. And so that’s why it’s so hard. Because you are. You’re walking around living with a mirror. The one person that can hurt you, the one person that is a serious threat to your emotional well-being, is your partner. So there’s no wonder, really, that it’s the hardest thing we do as adults be in a committed, intimate relationship. I talk about this in the book and I teach about this in the program. There are three of you in the relationship at all times. There’s you, there’s your partner and there’s your relationship. I’m creating a little triangle with my hands. Couples tend to think of your needs versus my needs, and they don’t think about their relationships needs.

Carolyn Sharp 00:37:35 And there gets sort of competition between, well, I got to do this and you got to sleep in. Well, I did this and you did that. And there’s a competition and I score. Keeping that happens that takes up a lot of room. and then they’re not seeing the relationships needs of our relationship as healthy as we are both happiest when we have regular check ins, when we are physically intimate, sexually intimate X number of times, and I’m not putting a number because people will take me as saying this is the ultimate healthy way, and there isn’t one way to have a healthy, intimate relationship. Some couples aren’t sexual at all, and that’s okay. Other couples do it like rabbits or rabbits, getting the pressure put on them, but there is no one healthy number. So I’m not saying we have sex seven times a week or something, because I don’t want couples to think I’m saying that’s the healthy number, but our relationship is its healthiest when we are physically intimate, when we’re sexually intimate, when we spend time together in a shared project, when we go have time alone, whatever it is, your relationship has needs that are separate from each of your needs, and moreover, you can’t have a healthy relationship without two healthy individuals.

Carolyn Sharp 00:38:48 So if you’re so like this hands entwined where you can’t see each other as people, the triangle is out of balance, and either one person isn’t getting their needs for autonomy and independence and freedom and whatever. They’re not getting that need met, or the other person isn’t getting their need for closeness met. And so they end up like, you know, in a huddle constantly a pie, a dogpile or whatever, or we’re not imbalanced as a couple. And so what I would say to your question of how do we get to being able to see each other, is looking at that triangle and seeing how we do it. How are you doing? Are you are you feeling like in this relationship you’re getting what you need to be your best self? Do I feel like I’m getting what I need to be my best self? And is our relationship getting what it needs?

Leslie Duffy 00:39:37 Preach. I’m telling this so good. You know, full disclosure, I’ve known my husband since we were 19, so it can be where you are in this.

Leslie Duffy 00:39:46 You do know them. You do know your partner so well. And to pull back. And when you’re like, pay close attention to them. Watch their face. I love everything that you’re saying. Like have these escape valves. Give yourself that idea that your relationship is three people your partner and yourself and the relationship. I love that so much. I think this is so necessary for people who have been married or in a relationship for a very long time, and everything’s changing, dynamics are changing, and then all of a sudden we’re with each other because sometimes relationships can be focused on the children. For example, if you know, that’s the focus of your relationship, or it could be that you’re moving a lot or that one partner is career is the focus, and everybody’s trying to support that one person in their marriage. So in the relationship or in the family.

Multiple Speakers 00:40:37 Well, those are more life.

Carolyn Sharp 00:40:39 Focuses than they are relationship focuses. I mean, I’m very careful to say your children shouldn’t be the focus of your relationship.

Carolyn Sharp 00:40:48 Relationship first children’s seconds, because children aren’t going to do very well if you end up splitting up, or you end up demonstrating that this is what the relationship is, all we do is race to soccer and ballet and whatever is the thing that we do for our kids. You’re teaching them that that’s what you come to expect in relationship and it’s not sustainable. It doesn’t mean that you’re starving your kids or you’re not taking them into ballet, or you’re not taking them to soccer. It means that you are setting aside energy just for your relationship, just for the two of you. You will do a better job. You’ll have more patience for parenting. You’ll be better at your job. If your job is the life thing that you guys need to prioritize, that’s fine, but it shouldn’t be the relationship focus. The relationship focus is making sure you feel loved and supported at your job. What’s your focus? Is my partner making sure you feel appreciated while you carry the home side so that when I come home you feel seen, recognized.

Carolyn Sharp 00:41:47 You know, like there’s there’s stuff to do around the relationship. So I just want to make that caveat that I warn people against making kids their relationship purpose or their relationship focus.

Leslie Duffy 00:42:00 Yes. And I mean, the reason why I brought that up was many women or listeners who are listening to the program at this point in their lives could be empty nesters. And I know that that really does create almost like a big vacuum when things suddenly change like that. And I’m curious, what have you seen in that? Do you find that what you just said was that shouldn’t be the focus? And now we’re seeing like, oh, it was the focus by accident. And now it’s like we’re looking at each other.

Carolyn Sharp 00:42:28 Yes, we’re looking at each other, and we don’t even know each other anymore because we put all our energy away. You know, we like not even the three of the triangle. Like a fourth thing, a thing Outside the relationship, we’ve been staring in the same direction, away from each other.

Carolyn Sharp 00:42:43 You know, like parallel lives. And now we don’t have that thing distracting us. We’ve retired. The kids have left. Who are you and why am I with you? What are we doing here? That’s what I try and prevent. Having fired up being a preventative book to prevent many of the problems, and to build health into your relationship, whether you’re one year or ten years in. I mean, and if you’re at 30 years, that’s great too. But this is an explanation for why that happens, because you neglected the relationship for 30 years to focus on your kids.

Multiple Speakers 00:43:18 Ooh ooh. Yikes.

Carolyn Sharp 00:43:21 Any relationship problems short of violence can be solved as long as both people want to solve the problem. So at menopause, at empty nest, the spark can be brought back. It will look different than it did from when you were 19 because you’re no longer 19 and you don’t live the life of a 19 year old, so it’s going to look different. But you can bring the spark back.

Carolyn Sharp 00:43:43 You can fall deeply in love with one another. I had a couple that were married 35 years who came in, and my program was sort of their last gasp at resuscitating their relationship, and they had very different interests, and they had raised their family and they, like, were looking at each other like, I don’t even think I like you. And after doing just a couple of the first steps of the program was sort of like reevaluating their purpose and why do we want to be together and all that sort of stuff. They came in and they were like, giggling and holding hands, and they looked like, I mean, they looked like young 20 somethings in terms of how their relationship looked. And it was so sweet and cute and inspiring to see. And it really just like, this shit works if you do it. And so I say to all of the women listening and hopefully some men who are wanting to support their Menopausal partners. You can bring it back. You can bring the love back if you want it back.

Leslie Duffy 00:44:42 I love that, I love that story. We talked about that offline together, and it got me to the question of what’s the one tool that you think really is underrated? And you said, oh, this couple use this tool. What was it? So that the audience knows.

Multiple Speakers 00:44:58 Well, there are really two.

Carolyn Sharp 00:44:59 One is eye gazing. Which or eye contact, which I sort of named before looking at each other is if you do nothing else, looking at each other will bring things to awareness that you need. The next most important one that you have to do what gazing is listening, which everybody thinks they know how to listen. But most of us are terrible listeners. You know, if, as I’m talking to you on the podcast, you’re already thinking of your follow up question, your brain has stopped listening. And that is what we do as humans. We want to talk so much. We want to be heard so much that we stop listening to the other person. And so I have an exercise.

Carolyn Sharp 00:45:38 I think it’s probably number four, because I think finding your purpose is number one, but the listening exercise is the one that most often couples describe as a game changer for their relationship. And universally they think it’s ridiculous. You know, they they’re like, oh, God.

Multiple Speakers 00:45:54 You know.

Carolyn Sharp 00:45:54 This is like.

Multiple Speakers 00:45:55 A role play. practice listening. Good.

Carolyn Sharp 00:45:58 And they think it’s hilarious. And I walk them through how to do it and they’re like, oh my God, this sounds so dumb. But then they can’t do it. They’re like.

Multiple Speakers 00:46:08 This is so hard.

Carolyn Sharp 00:46:09 This is so hard. And then they do it and they find it universally game changing for their relationship, that they learn things about each other when they take the time to actually do nothing. But listen.

Leslie Duffy 00:46:23 I had to do this with a company that I worked with when we were learning how to resolve conflict, and it’s interesting, like we can have like an whole HR focus on it, and it’s something that you can actually use in your own life and your own health and your own, relationships.

Leslie Duffy 00:46:38 But one of the things was looking at each other, but also listening and like not interrupting, which is huge. I was like, wow.

Carolyn Sharp 00:46:45 Listening without responding, just reflecting what you hear. And the power is twofold. One, listening and really hearing someone is powerful to like, oh my God, I didn’t know that about you. I see these transformative moments, but also the experience of being really listened to, having someone reflect back to you. What you’ve said is transformational because many of us didn’t experience listening. I mean, I grew up being menopausal. I grew up in a time where that wasn’t really the thing that parents did. And we grew up, you know, we all live in a culture where it’s, how are you? Fine. And you’re not actually asking because you’re interested. You’re just going through the motions. So there’s like all kinds of things that screwed us up in our capacity to listen. And now we’re in a very, very divisive time where people are absolutely not listening to each other.

Carolyn Sharp 00:47:35 They’re just judging each other. They’re just making assumptions based on what they think they know about someone based on a red hat that somebody is wearing, or a blue at that somebody is wearing. We’re making assumptions and we’re not listening to each other.

Leslie Duffy 00:47:50 Yeah, yeah. What do you say to the woman who’s like, you know what, I don’t know that I can get my partner to buy in on this.

Carolyn Sharp 00:47:58 If your partner is resistant, I would encourage you to contemplate what has been their experience with past invitations and what has been your approach to past invitations? So have they experienced it as criticism and shame and blame that you need to do this differently? Do they have experience with abandonment in their life such that they feel scared because they feel like, well, if we go to coaching or counseling or a retreat or whatever. You’re going to tell me you want to break up with me. Do they have abandonment fears? What is happening for them emotionally that’s causing them to respond that way? Do they have mythology about it means something bad? If you have to work on your relationship, it means you’re doing something wrong.

Carolyn Sharp 00:48:46 All of which is something that you can work on and you can help them with. Do they understand why you want it? Are you posing it as an invitation that I want us to be closer. I want us to have more fun. I want to make you happier. And I don’t think I’m doing a good job of that. That sounds differently than you need to come with me to couples counseling. You need to work on this. This is a working for me. That sounds threatening. People are going to naturally, you know, resist that. That sounds terrifying. Why would I want to go there? Why would I want to do that?

Leslie Duffy 00:49:19 Absolutely. I like your suggestions, but even on the other end of it, now, you’ve got like, you’re thinking about your partner, you’re like, I want my partner to get in on this. I don’t think they’re going to buy in. And you have some suggestions. What if you’re actually thinking about your own self, like you’re thinking it’s too late for us? What would you say to somebody who’s thinking that?

Carolyn Sharp 00:49:40 I would ask some questions, because sometimes they’re thinking that because that’s what they want and they are done.

Carolyn Sharp 00:49:47 And so I usually just bluntly ask, are you looking for permission to leave? Do you are you like done and you just want me to make it okay for you to leave? Those are painful conversations. I hate it when couples come for me to help them break up. It always makes me sad and it’s an important part of what I do. If they don’t feel strong enough, or they feel too much shame about wanting to leave their partnership or their marriage, and so they need help with that. So I ask those questions. But then I assure couples and show them, you know, I mean, I can I could tell them if you honestly do the work and you honestly want the relationship to be better. Give me three meetings and you’ll see what can happen. If you’re both being honest about wanting to be there and wanting to do the work. If you actually engage the work for three weeks or three meetings, you’ll notice a difference and you’ll see the bread crumbs. And so if you’re both ready to do the work.

Carolyn Sharp 00:50:49 I mean, from a book to a, you know, a online workshop to a, you know, actual meeting with a therapist or a pastor or, you know, like, it doesn’t need to be, you know, a therapist or a coach, you know, whatever. There are lots of ways to work on your relationship, but if you’re both ready to do the work, your relationship will change. If you’re honestly doing the work, it’s never too late.

Leslie Duffy 00:51:14 Which brings me back to that cute couple who came to your office and was like, they are ready. They’re like.

Multiple Speakers 00:51:19 This is our last ditch.

Leslie Duffy 00:51:20 Effort. And you also mentioned to me when we were talking, you’re like, there’s some people like, you know, one partner, they’re going through the motions and you realize pretty quickly they want permission to let go. But I love I love your the story of your little couple because I think it really speaks to I’m willing to try that. This is our chance. And when you do put your mind to something like that, it can change.

Carolyn Sharp 00:51:45 Well, and I want to say, I want to acknowledge that both of them were not on the same page. So they came to me because one of them had said, I’m done. So it was not a like we’re both ready to give it our all. It was a I’ll try, but I don’t really believe it’s going to make a difference.

Leslie Duffy 00:52:04 Isn’t that interesting?

Carolyn Sharp 00:52:05 And it was actually in a heterosexual couple. I yeah, I’m really not I mean, like I have some intuitive capacities, but I can’t fix the unfixable. You know, you have to have a relationship that’s fixable and two people that want to fix it for me to be able to work my magic. And, you know, interestingly, it was the woman that was done and it was the man that was like dragging her to. All right, let’s try one more thing. You know, I don’t want to go through divorce. I don’t want to. And he showed up differently for two solid weeks. And she was like, okay, he’s doing it.

Carolyn Sharp 00:52:39 He’s actually he’s not just putting a lip service. He’s actually doing the work. They started doing the work and it started making a difference.

Multiple Speakers 00:52:47 Oh my God.

Leslie Duffy 00:52:49 Wow. Well, that I think is really kind of like that testament where like, you’re like identifying like what is it going to take, what needs to change. And maybe she never really voiced that before, which is interesting.

Carolyn Sharp 00:53:02 Yeah. And he his ass was in the chair and I, you know, I mean, I shined a bright, shiny light on him as well to say. Have you been showing up for her in the way she deserves? Oh, like he was honest. And, you know, like, I, a. I was honest with both of them. Have you been making real effort to engage with him, or have you been making him feel bad about him? So they both, like, got the crude expressions come to Jesus, you know, the like sitting in front of the judge and jury of like, have you been doing real, honest, productive work together? No.

Carolyn Sharp 00:53:38 Okay, this will change, but you got to be ready to do the work. And it’s not going to be easy because you guys have neglected each other and your relationship for 30 years. Are you ready to actually do the work? Yes, and they did. And like three weeks later they were back giggling. They ended up buying their dream house, their dream retirement house. And like, you know, like I was I was like, whoa, this.

Multiple Speakers 00:54:03 Is.

Multiple Speakers 00:54:04 I didn’t realize I was that good.

Multiple Speakers 00:54:06 Are you glad you are.

Multiple Speakers 00:54:07 That good, Carolyn?

Multiple Speakers 00:54:08 Come on.

Leslie Duffy 00:54:10 That is just a huge testament to even when things are looking like it’s.

Multiple Speakers 00:54:15 Over.

Leslie Duffy 00:54:16 It can still turn around, even if you haven’t kindled that spark for years, it’s not too late and that we can definitely take a lot from this conversation. I also want to remind the audience that this happens in health too, where you can go in and out of awareness, levels of awareness, stages of awareness. They call it stages of change.

Leslie Duffy 00:54:35 And it’s like you have a problem, you’re aware of your problem, you’re looking for solutions. You get to the transformation, and then it can happen where you’re like, you still don’t put the effort in and you kind of backslide a little and that does happen. I love that you brought this to relationships. Carolyn, I want to thank you so much for being here today. We have talked about everything. I don’t think we’ve left one thing out. We’ve left not one stone.

Multiple Speakers 00:54:59 And I’m talking about my stones unturned.

Leslie Duffy 00:55:01 I’m really grateful for your time, your expertise. I’m wishing you so much success at Kripalu and your Ted talk. I’m going to be cheering you from the sidelines. What’s the best way for the audience to get in touch with you?

Carolyn Sharp 00:55:17 They can follow me on Instagram. Secure connections coaching. I’m on TikTok, although I don’t post as much there. And then my website is secure connections, retreats, comm, and all of the coaching programs and retreats and all of the speaking engagements in my blog is all hosted there.

Leslie Duffy 00:55:37 I hope this conversation gave you some relief and some language for what you’ve been feeling. And as I wrap up, here are a few quick reminders. Relationships don’t thrive on autopilot. They do need care and tending, especially in this season of change. If you’re feeling resentful, exhausted, emotionally distanced, those are signs that you need to check in, either with yourself or with your partner. And as a reminder, there are three parts to every relationship you, your partner, and the relationship itself. All three deserve attention. But before you focus on fixing the relationship, I want you to check in with your body. Just like relationships impact your physical health, as Carolyn pointed out. Your physical health is going to also impact your emotional health and your relationship and your resilience for decades to come. You need to nourish yourself, and you need to attend to your health. Because if you’re not sleeping, if stress feels unmanageable, if your brain is foggy or your energy is gone. That’s not something that you can actually push through or ignore.

Leslie Duffy 00:56:39 How you eat, how you move and you rest and support your body shapes everything. Your mood, your clarity, your connection, and yes, even your marriage. When your body is depleted or unsupported, it’s almost impossible to feel emotionally steady or even present in your relationship. So that’s why I really recommend that you book a 360 wellness assessment with me, because we’re going to sit down and talk about what habits you have in place in order to have real, true, lasting health, and not just not to chase perfection. We are just trying to get healthy so that it is a 360. That’s why I call it 360, but 360. Well, in this assessment, it affects everything. It affects your emotional stability and your relationships. We want to make sure that you are supporting yourself through this menopause transition. Physically we want to be nourishing, sleeping and thriving. And that’s how you do it. We’re going to get into that 360 wellness assessment with me, so that you can understand what your body is asking for, and you can support yourself from the inside out.

Leslie Duffy 00:57:41 So when your body is depleting or under supported or undernourished, it’s almost impossible to feel emotionally stable and present in your marriage. It’s so important that you take this time to reflect on how are your habits supporting your health and your marriage. I really want you to understand this because emotional and relationship breakthroughs are so much easier when your body isn’t running on empty. Your physical health and your relationships are deeply connected. You don’t care for one while neglecting the other. And if that resonates with you, please download the Listener Guide. It’s for free. You just have to sign up with your email. I’ll send it to you. And there are some reflection prompts and practices and really cool ways to engage with Carolyn Sharp, who is amazing. So you are not alone in this. I want you to know that this is a new season of life. It’s going to be epic and I’m so excited to support you through it. Thanks so much for joining me today for this episode of The Hormone Shift Show. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to hit subscribe and share it with a friend so that more women can feel supported.

Leslie Duffy 00:58:48 This is your window of health. Your comeback starts here. I’ll see you next time. Hey, if you would like to explore working together, the way to get started is to book your wellness shift strategy call. The link is in the show notes and I can’t wait to meet you. Take care.